Needham Family

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Origins

 

Three John's plus One

Between 1696 & 1772 there are wills of four John's in the parishes of Sheen, Alstonefield & Longnor, the questions are;

  • who are they,
  • who are their parents,
  • when were they baptised,
  • if they married who were their wives and children and
  • when and where did they die.

Not much then?

3.1 The wills

 

There are wills of four Johns who died between 1696 and 1772 of these three were written in 1761, 1770 & 1772. The table summarises the wills of the four john Needham

 

 
Will1
Will 2
Will 3
Will 4

John Needham

 

Black?crook? Alstonefield

Pool, Sheen

Pool, Sheen,

Alstonefield

written

Died intestate

27 Sep 1761

10 Dec 1770

1772

 

 

 

 

 

probate

29 April 1697

29 Oct 1761

14 May 1772

 

value

£19 13s 4d

 

 

£20

admin

20 Feb 1696

 

 

14 Feb 1772

wife

Maria/Mary?

Margaret Needham

Elizabeth dau of Wm Bossley of Hartington,

Standing - bachelor

sons

 

John, Thomas, William, Joseph,

William, John, Joseph,

William Baker of Lowe gentleman

dau

 

 

Elizabeth & Mary (the youngest four under 21.)

 

brother

 

Thomas,

 

 

nephew

 

Thomas Woodhouse,

 

 

 

 

John's eldest son (not named),

 

 

mother

 

 

Elizabeth Needham

 

mother brother

 

 

George Bateman

 

Beneficiaries

 

 

Samuel Johnson of Boothlow

 

mentions

 

 

 

William Wheekan of Lowes, William Baker of Lowe, John Doe, gent

executors

 

Margaret & William to be executors

Elizabeth dau William Bofoley of Hartington

Elizabeth Benison otherwise Needham wife Ralph Benison lawful mother

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclude

  • John d 1761 who wrote will 2 & John Dec 1770 will 3 have few differences;
    • John d1761 wife is Margaret and John Dec1770 wife is Elizabeth
    • John d 1761 has Thomas as a son and both have a William, John and Joseph
    • John d 1770 has two girls, Elizabeth & Mary and a wife Elizabeth

 

3.2 Families

 

There are three possible families in Sheen and one in Ludburn where a John is the family head

 

name

child

date

place

parents

Family 1

Hellenae

5 Feb 1679

sheen

Johanni/Maria

 

Georgi

12 Oct 1694

sheen

Johan/Mariae

 

 

 

 

 

Family 2

Johan

14 Feb 1683

sheen

Johan/Eliz

 

Thomae

6 Feb 1687

Sheen

Johannis

 

Elizabethae

1 Feb 1689

sheen

Johan/Eliz

 

Sarae

03 Mar 1691

sheen

Johan/Eliz

 

 

 

 

 

Family 4

Thomas

16 Oct 1720

Ludburne

John/Elizabeth

Joseph

9 May 1725

Ludburn

John/Elizabeth

William

6 Dec. 1722

Ludburne

John/Elizabeth

 

Family 3

John

11 Jun 1751

sheen

john/his wife

 

Thomas

14 nov 1754

sheen

john/his wife

 

Elizabeth

17 oct 1755

sheen

john/his wife

 

John

05 July 1757

sheen

john/his wife

 

Mary

9 aug 1761

sheen

john/his wife

 

 

 

 

 

It is clear that John head of family 1 fits with John will 1 date 1696

  • Dates and place are consistent
  • Wife's name coincides i.e. with will and baptism records
  • John head of family 1 & John head of family 2 can't be the same person – dates overlap
  • Thomas b 1687 could be part of the family of 1 or 2

It is also clear that the Elizabeth of married to John head of family 2 cannot be the same Elizabeth as that in family 4 – the age difference in the children is too great.

 

3.3 Baptisms of John's

 

There are four baptisms of John's in the concerned parishes

 

Who

Date

where

parents

abode

Johan

14 Feb 1683

sheen

Johan/Eliz

 

John

11 Jun 1751

sheen

john/ his wife

 

John

05 Jul 1757

sheen

john/ his wife

Under Whittle

John

3 Mar 1732

Longnor

Thomas/ Elizabeth

Lowe

 

 

It is clear that a number of baptism must be missing or the children were baptised outside Staffordshire

3.4 Burial

 

Forename

birth

death

burial

year

parent(s)

Abode

Where

John 

1695

19 Mar 1695/6

1695

Thos.

Alstonefield

John

1696

10 Feb 1696/7

1696

Sheen

Longnor,

John**

 

 

26 Dec 1770

1770

Pool

Sheen,

John*

17(1)2

Dec 1769

 

1769

Wife Elizabeth

 

Sheen

John

1739

27 Oct 1776

1776

1776

of low

Alstonefield

*comes from a gravestone

**There is a question whether John* is the same person as John bur 26 Dec 1770 – see later.

John d 1695/6 is consistent with will 1; John's will says he was from Alstonefield and he was buried there

John d 1696/7 is consistent with will2; John's will says he was living at Pool, Sheen and he was buried at Sheen

John d 1770 is consistent with will 3

 

3.5 Marriage

 

This summarises the marriages of John's in Longnor (none), Sheen, Alstonefield, Hartington, Chelmorton & Earl Sterndale

 

Name

Abode

Date

where

spouse

abode

John

 

30 Apr 1759

Duffield

Mary Woodhouse

 

John

OTP

17 Jan 1612

Hartington

Sleigh, Annam

 

John

Flagg

10 Jan 1637

Chelmorton

Heathcot, Elizabeth

 

Johnem

 

11 Aug 1661

Hartington

Wright, Margareta

 

Johan

 

22 Apr 1679

sheen

Mariam Gillman

 

Johannes

 

6 Nov 1687

Hartington

Eyley, Jane

 

Johannem

 

? Feb 1696

sheen

Mariam Sutton

 

John

 

31 Mar 1752

sheen

Margaret Bodman

 

John

Chelmorton

29 Dec 1763

Chelmorton

Swann, Sarah

Pressley

John 

OTP

25 Dec 1781

Alstonefield

Martha Steel

OTP

John

Bakewell

20 Nov 1795

Chelmorton

Blackden, Sarah

 

John

Bakewell

24 nov 1795

Chelmorton

Blackden Sarah

Chelmorton

Jno/John

Flagg

15 Jan 1798

Chelmorton

Needham Elizabeth

Tideswell

John

Hartington

13 Jul 1813

Hartington

Bossley, Hannah

 

John 

OTP

21 May 1832

Alstonefield

Anne Marsh

OTP

John Thomas

Bakewell?

Sept 1833

Chelmorton

Wood, Eva Isabel

Bakewell?

John

Flagg

21 May 1844

Chelmorton

Skidmore, Jane

 

John

Sheffield

Jul 1855

Chelmorton

Aldred, Ann

Sheffield

John Thomas

Flagg

21 Nov 1877

Chelmorton

Ball, Charlotte Ann

 

 

3.6 Intermediate Conclusions

 

Johan m 1679 to Mariam Gilman in Sheen is consistent with will 1 & John of family 1 i.e. wife & children's mother's name, dates (bap & marriage) & place Alstonefield. So, it would look as if we can safely say we know the family, wife and burial date of John in will 1.

The John in will 2 has a wife Margaret. There is a marriage of a John to Margaret Bodman in Sheen in Mar 1752. That would mean the children in the will viz John , Thomas, William, Joseph, would have to be born between 1752 & 1761; family 3 partly meets these requirements

There is no marriage of a John to an Elizabeth which is consistent with the baptisms of any of the John families. But there is something strange in will 3. John refers to an ‘intermarriage' between him and ‘Elizabeth the daughter of William Bossley of Hartington' and he goes on to formerly adopt her children William, John, Joseph, Elizabeth & Mary (the youngest four under 21.) as his heirs. At first sight this appears to me that these children are born out of wedlock (or at least Elizabeth Bossley was not married to John Needham) and at some stage may have adopted the surname Needham. However, the family of John 3 largely aligns to the children in Will 3 although will 3 does not have a Thomas and John 3's family does not have a Joseph. I can find a baptism of Elizabeth Bossley in Hartington with f William and there is an entry in the Hartington PR's for a Joseph Bossley bap 1749 with a father reputed to be a good old John Needham.

 

Baptism BOSSLEY

Eliz

Gulielmi & Eliz

Hartington

14 Jan 1719

 

 

BOSSLEY

Joseph

Elizabeth

Sojourner in Ipstones

25 Jun 1749

Illegitimate - reputed father John Needham of The Pool, Sheen

 

Will 3 clearly states John's wife is Elizabeth Bussey and we can identify baptisms for all the children and associate them with a John Needham. Can we now find any evidence that John Needham married Elizabeth Bossley? In the church yard of St Luke church in Sheen is a gravestone:

'Here/lieth the body of John Needham of Pool who departed this life Dec 1769 aged (5)7 years.

'Here/lieth the body of ELizabeth wife of John Needham who departed this life May 30th 180(2) aged (8)2 years.'

Or

John Needham

Dec 1769

1769

57

1712

Pool

 

Elizabeth Needham

30 May 1802

1802

82

1720

 

w John

So, it is save to conclude that Elizabeth Bossley was either not married to John Needham but lived with him or more probably they did get married but the PR is damaged or we haven't found the mrriage record yet . The members of family 3 plus Joseph Bossley make up the ‘sons & dau' in will 3 BUT the dates of birth are in the wrong order.

John in will 4 is a bachelor whose mother was a widow Elizabeth Needham who married Ralph Benison in 1753

3.7 Summary

 

 

So, we can begin to align the wills with the families:

John Will 1 Family 1

John Will 1     Family 1    

John Needham

intestate

 

Johan

bef 1658

will John 1696

Admin

20 feb 1696

 

Maria

probate

29 April 1697

 

Hellenae

5 feb 1679

Sheen

johanni

maria

value

£19 13s 4d

 

Georgi

12 oct 1694

Sheen, St Luke

johan

mariae

died intestate

?

Maria/Mary Needham

 

 

John Will 2 Family 4

 

John Will 2       Family 4        

John Needham

Pool, Sheen

 

 

Needham

John

 

 

 

The Elder of Pool in Sheen.

 

 

 

 

Elizabeth

 

 

 

died

d 1761

 

Thomas

16 Oct 1720

Longnor

John/Elizabeth

Ludburne

Probate

29 Oct 1761

 

9 May 1725

Longnor

John/Elizabeth

Sudburn

 

 

 

William

6 Dec. 1722

Longnor

John/Elizabeth

 

 

 

 

 

wife

Margaret Needham

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sons

John, Thomas, William, Joseph,

 

 

 

 

 

brother

Thomas,

 

 

 

 

nephew

Thomas Woodhouse,

 

 

 

 

John's eldest son (not named)

 

 

 

 

executors

Margaret & William (husbandman)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John Will 3 Family 3

John Will 3       Family 3      

John Needham

Pool, Sheen, Staffordshire, England

 

 

Needham

John

bef 1730

Will John 1770

10 Dec 1770

Yeoman

died

bur 26 Dec 1770 b 1712 (gravestone)

w Elizabeth d 180(2) age (8)2

probate

14 May 1772

 

 

John

11 Jun 1751

Sheen, St Luke,

john

his wife

 

 

William

20 Feb 1753

Sheen, St Luke,

john

his wife

Beneficiaries

Samuel Johnson of Boothlow

 

 

Thomas

14 noc 1754

Sheen, St Luke,

john

his wife

 

wife

Elizabeth dau of Wm Bossley of Hartington,

 

 

Elizabeth

17 oct 1755

Sheen, St Luke,

john

& his wife

Estates at Pool in Sheen & Hammersmith in Middlesex

sons

William, John, Joseph, declared heir m Elizabeth Bossley

 

 

 

 

Mary

9 aug 1761

Sheen, St Luke,

john

his wife

dau

Elizabeth & Mary (the youngest four under 21.)

mother

Elizabeth Needham

 

 

Joseph Bossley

25 Jun 1749

Sojourner Ipstones

 

Elizabeth

Illegitimate - reputed father John Needham of The Pool, Sheen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

mothers brother

George Bateman; lands in Hammersmith, Middlesex

 

 

Needham

Elizabeth

b 1721

1802

2 Jun 1802

widow

Sheen, St Luke, Staffordshire, England

Burial

 

lands came from

Jane Ellerton from will of Robert Bateman of Brentford

 

BOSSLEY

Eliz

Gul & Eliz

Hartington

14 Jan 1719

Baptism

formerly intermarried

Elizabeth dau William Bofoley of Hartington

executors

Samuel Johnson of Boothlow

John Marsh of Hievel in Alstonefield

 

  3.8 Birth, Death & Parents

 

We have the wills of four John's dated 1696, 1761 1770 & 1772 . The question is when does each John die, when were they born and who were their parents? The first thing to say is that it looks as if we can sort out the John's of will 1 & 4

 

3.8.1 John Will 1

John's died intestate and administration was undertaken on 20 Feb 1696/7on the will documentation he lived at Black? Crook? in the parish of Alstonefield (cannot find the name on an OS map). Probate was completed by his wife Mary (I believe it is his wife) in 1697. This being the case then he married Mariam Gillman in Apr 1679 in Sheen and had at least 2 children the first of whom was born in Feb 1679/80. So, when and where was he born? Working from the baptism of his eldest child you would expect John of will 1 to be born before 1658. There are no clear candidates in Sheen, Longnor or Alstonefield

 

John Will 1 Family 1

John Needham

intestate

Johan

bef 1658

Admin

Mar 1695/6

Maria

probate

29 April 1697

Hellenae

5 feb 1679

Sheen

johanni

maria

value

£19 13s 4d

Georgi

12 oct 1694

Sheen, St Luke

johan

mariae

died intestate

?

Maria/Mary Needham

 

but there is one in the adjourning parish of Hartington. From his marriage you would suppose he was born around 1658 (i.e. 1679-21). There is a record:

 

NEEDHAM

Johnis

4 Dec 1655

1655

Johnis

Cronxston

Hart

 

But unfortunately, this John died shortly after his birth – thought you should know this. So, we do not have a baptism or a parentage of John! Although he could be George's son John; but see later

 

3.8.2 John Will 4

 

John of will 4 is a bachelor who dies without issue in Feb 1772. His mother is another Elizabeth. We have no idea of a birth year from the will or burial record. There is one obvious candidate: John Needham b 1732, abode Lowe parents Thomas & Elizabeth. Thomas died in 1753 and his wife Elizabeth was re-married to Ralph Benson in 1754. John of will 4 states his mother was the wife of Ralph Benson. Thus, we appear to have the correct mother so is there anything else to back this up? Well in the will of John 4 tow people mentioned, William Wheekan and William Baker, are both of Lowe

 

John Will 4 No Family

 

John Needham

Alstonefield

1772

bachelor

death

Feb 1772

probate

13-May

value

£20

admin

14 Feb 1772

William Wheekan of Lowes, Weaver

William Baker of Lowe gentleman

John Doe, gent

mother

Elizabeth benison otherwise Needham wife Ralph Benison lawful mother

 

3.8.3 John Will 3

The 1770 will refers to John's mother being Elizabeth & we have two Families (2&4) where the father is John & the mother Elizabeth. If John is from Family 2 he was born Feb 1683 and he would have been nearly 70 before his first child was born – this seems unlikely. In addition, there is the issue of the gravestone mentioned earlier. There is a gravestone in Sheen of a John Needham who dies in Dec 1769 and it states he died aged (5)7 i.e. he was born in 17(1)2. The brackets mean that there is some uncertainty about the number enclosed in the brackets. The gravestone also gives details of his wife and this can be combined with a burial record for an Elizabeth

Birth

death

buried

year

relative

where

age

John

17(1)2

Dec 1769

1769/70

1769

wife Elizabeth

Sheen

(5)7

Eliz...

17(2)0

30 May 1802

2 Jun 1802

1802

Wife of John

Sheen,

(8)2

 

We have seen that Elizabeth Bossley (John of will 3's ‘wife'?) was born/baptised in 1720 in Hartington. This fits with the gravestone birth year above and leads you into thinking that her husband was John of will 3. BUT like all good Needham's there is also a BUT. In this case there is either a mistake or two or he cannot be John 3

  • But 1 - Will 3 is dated 10 Dec 1770 and there is an associated burial for a John of 26 Dec 1770 but the gravestone says John died Dec 1769 – this would suggest that the gravestone is wrong by a year. This has been found before in Wormhill.
  • But 2 – I can't find a marriage of a John Needham to an Elizabeth Bossley
  • But 3 - the gravestone implies that John was born in 17(1)2 but as proposed the baptism date is 14 Feb 1683. This would mean that instead of being (5)7 John would be (8)7 when he died. Experience has shown that a worn ‘5' and ‘8' are difficult to distinguish

If you take the dates at face value then John who died Dec 1769 and his wife Elizabeth cannot be the parents of family 2- they were not born – but could be the parents of family 3. This would mean that the of the four families identified then John of will 3 must be John of family 3 and John of will 2 must be John head of Family 4. Is there anything to back this up?

Let's assume that John of will 3 d 1769/70 and was born in 1712. According to his will, John's mother is Elizabeth Bateman (from Middlesex) - John's will 1770. There is a will in Middlesex of a Richard Bateman who refers to his sister Elizabeth Needham and brother George Bateman (George Bateman is referred to in John's will as the brother of his mother Elizabeth Bateman). But I can't find a marriage of a John Needham to an Elizabeth Bateman or anyone who'd fit - must be in the south – so this could mean that some births/baptisms are missing. Now Richard Bateman's will be dated 1743 so his sister Elizabeth must have been alive then. An Elizabeth Needham dies and is buried in 1747.

In addition will 3 mentions John's children as William, John, Joseph, Elizabeth and Mary. This aligns with the known children of family 3 assuming that Joseph Bossley is John's son. In fact, looking at census records Joseph does take the surname Needham (good man I say)

So, John of will 3 is the head of Family three. The only problem is I can't find the marriage of John Needham to Elizabeth Bossley and there is no baptism record I can find to date for John Needham in 1712

John of will 2 dated 1761 has a wife Margaret, sons John, Thomas, William & Joseph and a brother Thomas. There is a marriage of a John Needham to Margaret Bodman in 1752 in Sheen. Thus, the John of will 2 must have been married previously and it is proposed that John's first wife was Elizabeth (Bateman). If this I the case we have seen an Elizabeth Needham died in 1747 this would mean that Margaret could be John's second wife and his wife when he died. But who are John's sons and brother?

There are baptism records from Longnor of a John & Elizabeth Needham of Ludburn having three sons Thomas, Joseph & William born between 1720 & 1725. If this is John 2 then Elizabeth must be Elizabeth Bateman and this would mean that john 3 b 1712 is John & Elizabeth of Ludburn fourth son – but I haven't found a baptism record for John to date

So, who is John 2 and where does Elizabeth Bateman originate and where did she marry John?

3.8.4 John Will 2

In George Needham's will of 1689 he mentions a son John of Pool. A John of Pool dies in 1761 presumably this is George's son but this would make John nearly 100 when he died if he was George's son when he wrote his will– not probable

John of will 2 died in 1761. In his will he is referred to as John the Elder of Pool in Sheen. At his death he was married to Margaret but it is proposed his first wife was Elizabeth Bateman who died in 1747. He was born in 1712 but I can't find a baptism. It is thought John and Elizabeth had four children between 1712 and 1725 of whom three were born at Ludburn – Family 4. Ludburn never heard of it. It's across the river from Pool/Ridge End not a spitting distance from these two farms This would mean John and Elizabeth married before 1712 and that John of will 2 was most probably born before 1691. There is a John baptised in 1683 at Sheen who has a brother Thomas and sisters Elizabeth and Sarah – Family 2. The parents are John and Elizabeth (oh not another John and Elizabeth). This John must have married before 1683 and been born before 1662. In addition, John was probably buried in Feb 1696/7 in Longnor abode Sheen. So, he would be the son of George and Maria mentioned in George's will of 1689.

 

3.8.5 John no Will

So, John head of family 2 whose wife was Elizabeth died in 1696/7. He is the son of George. George wrote his will in 1689 but died in 1701 so his son died before him and in fact John of family 2 died without making a will. He possibly died suddenly, by accident?

 

Summary of John burials & birth

 

John

Buried

Baptised

parents

birth year

basis

Family

Will 1

Mar 1695/6

 

unknown

Bef. 1658

eldest child

Family 1

No will

10 Feb 1696/7

George & Mary

Bef. 1662

eldest child

Family 2

Will 2

27 Sep 1761

14 Feb 1683

John & Elizabeth

1683

Baptism/eldest child

Family 4

Will 3

26 Dec 1770

John & Elizabeth

1712

gravestone

Family 3

Will 4

Feb 1772

3 Mar 1732

Thomas & Elizabeth

1732

no children

No family

 

This may not be the case; I may have got it wrong. The worry is;

  • For three John's we haven't got a baptism date and for one John we have not identified parents
  • We have not identified the two Elizabeth's who married John's and the one who married Thomas

Question. Are there too many buts?

Of course, you may(probably) know better. If so get in contact

 

 

 

 

 

 

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